Cody: Welcome to Freezing Creeks. A Dawsons Creek podcast. The show where four millennials who missed the boat 25 years ago take the dive for the first time. Join us as we experience the series with a fresh perspective and see if our adolescent experiences match up with Dawson and Z gang. My name is Cody.
Stella: I'm Stella.
Mallory: I'm Mallory.
James: And I'm James. And this week we are going to be reflecting on season one of Dawson's Creek. The whole damn season. Can you believe it? We made it. We made it through 13 episodes of the best television show of all time.
Cody: Number one... maybe.
James: Number one. So, yeah, 13 episodes aired, uh, in the year 1998, premiered on January 20, and the finale was on May 19 of the year of Our Lord 1998. There were a couple, um, very dominant figures through the majority of this season. Obviously, we had Kevin Williamson. He is the most credited writer of the show. Of course, you would imagine he created it. But, uh, beyond that, we have two people who emerged as favorites in this show. From the writing standpoint, john Harmon Feldman had five writing credits, and Dana Barrata had four writing credits. These people were featured more than any other writers in season one. So I guess they're who we should.
Cody: Blame for small renters room. Maybe.
James: Yeah, definitely. Honorable mention, though, mike White, our buddy.
Cody: Our best friend on the show. And also, I don't know if we've given him, uh, Mike, I know you're listening. Congratulations for winning multiple, uh, Emmys for White Lotus.
James: They're welcome.
Cody: Okay. Well, congratulations, Mike White.
Mallory: Again, we didn't say that already.
Cody: Okay, well, never mind. Mike White, this is the first time that we're congratulating you on your Emmy wins for the White Lotus.
James: Yeah. And I think we are directly responsible, are we not? Were there four swing votes that put it in his favor?
Cody: That show is based on my life. I worked at a hotel and I was murdered.
James: Yeah. Interesting. I didn't know that you were a ghost. Funny. That explains a lot.
Stella: Yeah. As a whole other spooky element to.
Cody: The show, why the show is terrifying.
James: Uh, not just writers, we also had a couple of directors who made multiple appearances. Steve Minor is the most featured director. He directed four episodes of our 13. And the next most featured director was David Semel. Other than that, pretty much everybody just did one and done. We had a slew of one and done directors.
Cody: Yeah. If you're directing a TV or kind of interchangeable, um, not that that's a bad thing. It's just you're there to do a job. It's more of instead of an auto putting their prints all over something, you're there to service, uh, the production itself. But funny enough, uh, since it's spooky season, I like revisiting a lot of spooky stuff. And I was watching a, um, Buffy, um, the Vampire Center two parter from season two, and David semel was the director of both of those. Both of WB. It's the same year so it's like, yeah that guy was just hanging out.
James: Around town, he had a good contract over at WB or he was on somebody's call sheet, uh, towards the top, like, hey, you need a director, he's our guy.
Cody: David.
James: Yeah, it was a fun time. I think season one ultimately was really just the introduction to Dawson's Creek. I think they wrote this season not knowing if they would get renewed but hoping they would and really all we got out of the season was meeting the core four of Capeside to kind of get a little slice of life of what it is like in this town. So those characters to summarize are Dawson Leary, Joey Potter, Pacey Whitter and the new girl nextdoor, Jen Lindley. Throughout the season really, uh, everybody is kind of getting their life rocked in different ways. Dawson is finding out that his mom, the news anchor, uh, for the local news, has been cheating on her dad. These like this beautiful vision of a relationship. She's uh, been cheating on her dad with her coworker.
Stella: Her dad.
James: Yeah, she's been cheating on her dad. I mean, we all got to do.
Cody: It at some point and this is a Game of Thrones.
James: Yeah, okay, you're right. So she's cheating on her husband. Not her dad.
Mallory: Dawson's, um, dad.
Cody: Yeah.
James: Dawson's. Daddy. Mr. Manmeat as we like to call him, joey, uh, on the other hand is kind of grappling with falling in love or at least realizing that she's in love with her childhood best friend who is the titular Dawson of Dawson's Creek. He owns this town.
Mallory: Dawson.
James: Uh, we get to meet Dawson's best friend. Also worst enemy and I think town fuck up Hay.
Cody: See they're class clowns and they're town clowns. Yes. And my friend, he is a town.
James: Clown, he really is. And uh, unfortunately he's probably the person who's in most need of help in this entire community. He's kind of just railing against his abusive family life in every scene and just kind of letting out a massive cry for help that everybody is ignoring except for one person, Ms. Jacobs, who is his teacher and they have a sexual relationship. Very cool. Yeah. Get it Pacey. Actually no, don't. I'm sorry.
Cody: Absolutely not. Totally.
James: Mary kayla turno analog. Uh, we talked extensively about that. Hopefully we won't get mired in that again but you never know. And then finally that leaves us with Jen. She's escaping life in the big city.
Cody: Walking here, um, hey, I'm swinging here.
James: And really all she does is just whisper sweet nothings into her grandfather's gaping chest wound. M. And that's season one in a nutshell. I mean that's really what we get. I guess the only other thing is Dawson is in love with Jen but now he's in love with Joey.
Cody: There's 13 episodes for that to happen. It's so strange because every episode we kept thinking it's going to go somewhere and things absolutely did happen. But at the same time, we're recycling the main beats over and over and over again. That's why it's so funny that this summary of season one is four sentences long. Really? In our notes, uh, did things happen? I'm sure they did. Uh, but did things happen? Not really, no. They are stuck.
James: A lot of times, whatever was done, much like a Scooby Doo episode, is just undone by the end of the episode. It's just kind of like, oh, okay, so we made progress, but then we made no progress at the same time. Cool. I like that. That's fun.
Cody: I know. Shows back then, uh, you really had to hit the restart button because you did want to be episodic. You wanted to make sure that if people missed one or two episodes and they came back, they knew exactly what they were getting into. They didn't have to see everything. Uh, people couldn't afford a VCR with, uh, the recording capability of capturing an episode if you were busy doing things in 1998, it was very expensive, it was hard to do, and that is to the fault of this show because just like Star, uh, Trek, Voyager, it seemed like no matter what happened to that ship, the next episode, everything's fine, baby, we're doing all right. Frustrating.
James: It removes consequences. There are no consequences for any actions. If we're constantly just starting where we ended last time, it makes everything feel ultimately trivial, which is I think my biggest critique of season one is that it felt trivial. I don't know why I watched this aside for this show. I'm happy I did. But yeah, to Cody's point, what happened? Four sentences.
Cody: Yeah, it's so funny too, because that you can't have a show like this where you're investing so much in the nuance of the interactions between these characters, especially when love is involved. And such a fault of the show is that you will have episodes ending with big moments happening between characters, such as a detention when Joey basically reveals that she's in love with Dawson. And then the next episode, they just don't talk about that. We still had like four or five episodes left of that season where they were just kind of like marinating and that awkwardness without ever discussing it. So it's like, well, it's because you had to hit that restart button, baby. You don't know who's going to tune in.
Mallory: Yeah.
Stella: Yeah. It's interesting. Like, I feel like there was a lot of potential to explore, a lot of really interesting themes. They were so lately touched on, like classism, ah, racism, um, Dawson's parents potentially going through a divorce, jen dealing with death. There are lots of really potentially, uh, rich things that they could, uh, have gotten into, and maybe they will. Um, but that was definitely a disappointment.
Mallory: Yeah, it was very surface for all of those themes. It felt like surface level.
James: Yeah, I mean it's like they're playing it safe. Um, which I get. It's your first season, you probably don't want to go too hard in case it turns people off. You want to have a runway to go off of and I think in that respect, season one was successful because I am invested in these characters and I do want to see what happens to them. And I'm very curious to see more about Pacey. I really hope we get that, especially for 13 episodes. It did its job, it could have done it so much better. And part of our show is looking at it with the modern lens. Looking at a show that's about 25 years old from the perspective of today and from the perspective of today in this 13 episode season, what do we really get? Like one episode in today's TV? You could probably boil down the major points of this into one, maybe two, maybe like a three episode arc in your 13 episode season and it would give you so much more room to explore everything that we're talking about. So it's challenging to look back at now and be like man, I wish it had all these modern conveniences that were so accustomed to or that we're so used to that just were not a thing then.
Cody: I can't even imagine what the show would even be like in a modern context because I think so much of the charm of it is the fact that it is from the late ninety s and it's so of its time that it allows itself to be extremely problematic uh, which we thoroughly have discussed every problematic thing that's within this show. I'm sure there's even stuff that we haven't even discussed because we're so way down by how uh, I guess generally fucked up some are. But even to that, uh, I do like these characters. I do like seeing them grow. I like seeing Dawson starting as a uh, blank slate and moving on a little bit to learn about himself and starting to be more introspective. There are things in the show that are keeping me interested and if that was modern, what would that look like? Would it be like euphoria. Where these things would be even more fucked up? I don't know. Like the relationship between Pacey and tomorrow, would that be a similar situation to I don't know and Euphoria?
James: Uh, jewels and that dad and the dad.
Cody: Jewels and dad. Yeah. Would it be like that? I don't know.
James: Right?
Cody: Mhm. And would that make for better or worse? Would that be okay? Would that not be okay? Like is it better being viewed from uh, this it's 1998 and this is on basic cable. They're not even basic cable. It's like the free channels WB. So it's like heavily censored. You're not really getting, you're never allowed to go too deep with some of these darker issues? Um, would we want to see the darker, more intense, visceral, um, version of that relationship? I don't know. But it's so of its time.
James: It's over time, it isn't. I think euphoria does feel kind of like the modern equivalent of Dawson's Creek because Dawson's Creek was challenging, like the modern media at the time of 98 to show kids can be adults too. They can speak like adults. They're not just dumb, they're not just out for hijinks. They're not just like ScoobyDoo trying to solve a mystery or something, but they actually have real problems. They actually have real emotions and therefore we're going to try to portray them in this kind of like heightened, stylized dialogue to show, hey, kids are people too. Right. Effectively is the message that we get. And I think that's kind of what euphoria does in a way. I haven't seen a lot of euphoria, but it feels like they're trying to show, hey, kids are going through real shit too. It's not just school, it's all sorts of things. So to your point yeah, I mean, what could Dawson's Creek, if it were on mainline cable today, do to challenge the representation of kids in the media that would still be public or like free TV friendly? Is there a place for Dawson's Creek in today's kid media culture?
Cody: I don't know. I honestly don't know. A modern version of it would feel too tame.
James: Right.
Cody: Unless, uh, they went hard on some of these topics. But then again, I don't know if I want to see that.
James: Right.
Cody: It seems weird. But then again, too, with euphoria, it's also such a heightened, surreal version of high school life. Like how this is the heightened surreal version of high school life, but whereas euphoria is stylized with very, um, flamboyant cinematography and it's like rich in the costuming and things like that, this is more in the style of like a melodrama that feels kind of dated and it's inequated like a soap opera, like 1950s Stylization. That's weird. I don't know. Very different though.
James: So I have a question for all of you. I mean, we're starting to get into the season. So going into season one, going into Dawson's Creek, I had basically no frame of context for this. The only thing I knew was that meme of Dawson crying. That's basically it. Um, so now it's interesting. We've watched one season of Dawson's Creek. I feel like I know a little bit more about the show. I'm invested in it, like we said. So my question for you is now when you think of Dawson's Creek, what's the first thing that comes to mind now from season one? Like, are there any standout moments that you have thinking back on it?
Mallory: Yeah, I thought about this for a little bit and for me, the first moment that comes to mind is in the pilot. It's the movie theater sequence. So I rewatch this because it's kind of like the first thing I thought I had when I see the intro. They're all wearing those outfits so that's kind of like the visual I have. But then I was like, oh, I got to go watch this scene. Um, so this entire series of events starts with a group walking into the movie theater and then it goes up to Dawson and Joey fight. Joey tells Dawson to grow up and then she leaves.
James: Do you think about that, Shadowing?
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: So the interactions that happened during these first few scenes basically encapsulates season one.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Also when they're walking down the street, dawson's walking, um, between Jen and Joey. He walks in between them and then, uh, Joey's resistant to Jen's friendliness and then Dawson later chooses to sit by Jen but ends up getting an earful from Joey toward the end. And then of course, Pace is with the group but then he kind of splits off and to talk to tomorrow and then causes the scene but he's kind of like then gone.
Cody: Right.
James: Interesting. It kind of wraps up the whole season in that little exchange. I think that also deals very well with the themes that we see play out in, um, that prologue of every episode where they're watching a movie and then the movie has something to deal with or at least the conversation has something to deal with with the rest of the episode. I find it interesting that they're in the movies or Joey says to grow up and then the movie cuts. The movie is over. We're no longer in the movies.
Mallory: Yeah. She says to grow up when they're kind of fighting out in the hallway and then leaves. And that's kind of what happens in the last in the finale.
James: Yeah.
Mallory: Grow up and then she's going to go leave. Yeah.
James: Interesting. That's a good moment. I like that.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Anybody else? What do you guys think of when you think of season one at Dawson's Creek?
Mallory: Also water, I wanted to mention definitely.
James: I cannot help but think of, uh, the first thing that I think of and really the only thing that I think of is this moment that I have a sound clip for. I'm sure we'll all remember it vividly.
Stella: Literally. Me too.
James: That is always going to be my favorite moment of this show. Um, it's great and I think that that perfectly captures what I like about this show. It's kind of silly. It's not taking itself too seriously, but it's trying a little too hard at the same time and I love it.
Mallory: That's so good.
Stella: Yeah. I was going to say Jim Scream and, um, Mr. Manhattan, I choose to hate you now.
Mallory: Let's hear that.
James: Yeah, I got to pull that up fill some time.
Stella: Yeah. The hurricane, um, episode was just I think we all rated that one highly.
Mallory: Yeah, I think that was the highest.
Stella: Yeah, it was such a fever dream.
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: I had some great moments.
Stella: Also, the, um, rowboat, um, in the opening sequence, them jumping on the boat.
Mallory: Oh, yeah, the rocking.
Cody: That's what comes to mind.
Mallory: The robot.
James: Okay, I found the clip. Everybody, let's listen to Mr. Manmeat.
Cody: I choose to hate you now.
James: Oh, uh, that's beautiful.
Stella: Classic.
Cody: I love that you also we rated that highly, but I gave it like a one that is one of the worst episodes of show I've ever seen. Of show just show in general. Worst episode, show in general, that it's hard for me to even imagine what them breaking the story in that writer's room of being like, okay, uh, it seems like they had been up. You always hear about Saturday Night Live and how it's like everyone has to stay up all night and they're writing sketches until like five or six in the morning. And then it gets to like, showtime and they're in the last 12 hours, it's like scramble mode. Everyone is like, rushing to figure out, okay, do we really need the sketch? That's why I feel like Hurricane came up came to be because it is so bonkers the way that characters interact with each other. That's when we learned that, um, Graham's, uh, is a racist. That's where we learned that Joey likes to put her body into a tiny little ah ball and sit on various objects in Dawson's room. It's just like, so bad and horrible. And I choose to hate you now. And, uh, Mr. Mammy going just all bad ideas being thrown at a dartboard.
Stella: Which one did you like more, Hurricane or Beauty contest?
Cody: Uh, what did I like more? As an episode of TV, I would say, oh, well, enjoyment versus criticism is for me, two very different things. What did I enjoy?
Mallory: Moi?
Cody: Well, uh, what did I enjoy more? Hurricane. Uh, what was a better show? Beauty contest. Um, better episode.
James: I agree that Hurricane was the best episode for this reason. Maybe exclusively.
Cody: Don't change the subject.
James: This kid is being sustained.
Cody: No, he's not. Jesus Christ.
James: I mean, come on.
Mallory: Oh, man.
James: When else are we going to have an episode almost dedicated to whether or not we're going to circumcise our baby? I need this.
Cody: Again, that's just another bad, like, oh, what should these characters be doing? Well, let's give them one subject to talk about from start to finish this episode, there's going to sit in the corner of this, uh, big living room and discuss this openly while everyone else is sitting around. Very private discussion.
James: I mean, everybody needs to have an opinion on it. I think everybody should have an opinion on whether or not I circumcise my baby.
Cody: It's funny that they start with the conversation. Like, what do you think of first? And, uh, to be honest, the first thing that comes to mind when I think of this show is the bad ADR in Hurricane. Um, it just feels like this is what Dawson Creek is. It's scrambling and then making bad decisions on shooting. Like who shoots outside during a storm just for the authenticity of it to make it look like there's a storm or hurricane happening and then later on being like, oh, none of our audio works so we're going to have to re record sound terrible. It is a big fat oopsies and that's what season one feels like. I agree there are some good ideas in season one, but how they go about it, uh, not so good in.
Stella: This episode be called a big fat oopsie.
James: Uh, it should be, um man. So I guess we should probably talk about the characters of Dawson's Creek a little bit more, shouldn't we? I mean there's a lot of it's funny because we're talking about how so much happens and at the same time so little happens. And I feel like that is reflected when we're trying to break these characters down a little bit. Like what actually happens to Dawson in this season? Can anybody tell me? I'm sorry, if you hear eating in the background, it's none of us. My cat is directly behind us going to town on her breakfast.
Cody: You don't have to cover for Stella. Stella is on her hands and knees.
Stella: I do love cat food.
Cody: Yeah, she really wanted a bowl of cereal but we don't have any bowls so we put some apple Jacks on the ground and poured milk over it. What happened to Dawson this season? Who is Dawson Leary at the end of the day? From what we know at the end of season one, who is he? He is an extremely passionate person who loves the arts but at the same time he doesn't know anything about the art. It's almost like he's in love with the idea of being a filmmaker instead of actually being a filmmaker, which is, I feel like, uh, explored with the beginning of the season. He's making a film and then they never touch on that again. If that is because they're in the writers room, let's just abandon this because it's taking up way too much time of other things we want to do. That makes sense. But also it feels like that is who Dawson is. He'll start a project without actually thinking about doing the project and then it gets dropped and I see that being reflected in his relationships, especially with Jen. He fell for Jen and then did nothing to maintain that relationship and then got upset when Jen left him. Dude.
James: And he's only in love with the idea of Jen too. Not actually Jen as a person.
Mallory: I think it would have been interesting if they actually put that in there where he was working on the movie and then he's like, I'm done with it. Or just some little thing where he like actually dropped it and then maybe he tried to start another project or something. Even just like that little bit of would make sense for his character if.
James: Only we didn't get that.
Cody: Yes, I do like the arc that we did get with Dawson.
James: Ah.
Cody: And I'm divorcing that from his relationship between Joey. Uh, like, I don't really think that they should have ended up with the kiss. I know that's what the show wanted, but is it what I wanted? I don't really know if he deserves that but, uh, from a top level, high level perspective, the arc of Dawson not being able to be emotionally mature to investigate, uh, his own wants and needs and being able to explore that and finally come to terms with what he wants. Do I like that arc? He? Yes, I do. I thought that was nice to watch.
James: Yeah. Mhm.
Stella: I think also just his reality being kind of challenged in terms of like his kind of picture perfect life being rocked by his parents relationship changing and his relationships kind of being challenged. Like his friendships being challenged.
James: Yeah. On the subject of his parents, let's talk about Mitch and Gail a little bit. It starts and the first thing we see of Mr. And Mrs. Manmade is them, um, making out on the ottoman in the living room as Dawson and Pacey come in from filming their movie in that very first episode. Um, we are hit over the head with sexuality openly, um, like being displayed, which is, hey, whatever. Maybe not in front of your kids though. Especially not in front of your kids friends. That might be a boundary that we can establish. And it seems like we're going to be getting a really big featuring of Mitch and Gale and around season episode five, around Hurricane, kind of like, all right, well, we're done with them now.
Cody: Mhm.
James: So where did they go? It was so important to the story until it was no longer convenient.
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: And then after that it was like they were being shoehorned in just to remind us. But yeah, we didn't get much other than that.
Cody: Uh, I, uh, would say a lot of the show is them making decisions way too early, uh, without having figured out exactly what they want of these situations and trying to correct it later. I'm a huge fan of Battlestar, uh, Galactica and Lost. Lost gets a lot of flak for people for thinking that they thought of some ideas at the beginning and then were trying to correct up until the end but that show was very well thought out on a high level up until the end and it's just weird. Whereas Ballspar Galactica, uh, also a terrific show but that was them just throwing a bunch of shit against the wall and then by season four it is absolutely bonkers and they're trying to write themselves out of it. I still think they do a pretty good job at that but you can tell that they had no idea what they were doing in that show was exciting though. This feels like that where they're going to be like, okay, we're going to start hot and heavy with Mission Gale. They're hyper sexualized in this hypersexual world. But that tone kind of leaves the show. So now there's no real room for missing Gale to be hypersexual. It doesn't really make sense. I think that's why they included having their potential, uh, divorce, being like the low level things. But then even after that, it's like, oh, we don't really know what to do with these characters anymore. So yeah, like you said, shoehorned in. And it is, I mean, all to be the backbone of Dawson as a character and to understand his perspective more than them actually having their own agency. So what do we really learn from Missing Gail? It's like that's why Dawson has a fucked up idea of what, uh, relationships and romance is supposed to be about because his parents are so weird. I don't know. Um, I really do hope that this trajectory of the parents gets fleshed out more in season two and they actually become actual people instead of just servicing Dawson. Exactly.
Mallory: Which m we did see. I feel like we saw a little bit of that at the end where we see Gail being the judge of the beauty contest. They're not interacting with each other in that episode. So maybe we'll get to see more of them as individuals later.
Cody: Totally. Yeah. And to that, it seems weird to say that in modern times this is a condensed season. This is only 13 episodes of what will continue on from here on out, be like 26 episode seasons. And that's my favorite thing about Star Trek or any other show that had this is like you can have episodes where it's just going to be data and maybe in the show we're going to get an episode where it's just Gail getting stuck at the supermarket when there's another hurricane. And so it's like her relationship with all the people we get to learn about who is Gail. Uh, that would be great. I really hope that they do that and we get individual episodes on these people.
James: I think it would be really cool to see remember Mitch's restaurant? That his aquatic themed restaurant. Another dropped, another very sad, completely gone. But it would be really fun if we return to that as an avenue to see the Leary family rebuilding itself. Like, hey, let's all pull together in this and make it happen. We could also see Joey and Bessy and Bodie and all of them kind of get wrapped baby and baby, of course, because, um, they're restauranteurs, right? They would want to help out here. So I think that would be a really fun thing to see come back instead of it just being like, hey, how can we serve Dawson a little bit more?
Stella: So cool if Bode became the chef at the Aquatic restaurant.
James: Yes. Wearing a little octopus costume.
Stella: Oh my God.
James: Can you imagine?
Cody: Oh, is this going to be the trajectory of this show is that Joey and Dawson get married and their families combine to create this chain restaurant, the Coral or whatever the fuck is called.
James: It better be. I love Coral. Crusty bucket.
Cody: The Crab Shack. That's a real thing.
James: Uh, we can do it.
Cody: Shrimp m shish kebab.
Mallory: Shrimp Shack.
James: Um, under, uh, the sea, uh, tuna toast. That's great.
Cody: Uh, you can't believe it, but it.
Mallory: Was like such a distinct I only.
Cody: Said that because one year out the other baby. I don't remember anything.
James: It doesn't matter.
Mallory: I remember talking about the name, but who cares?
James: Who cares? Let's Talk about Joey. Um, we just mentioned her a little bit. So what do we know about Joey? She is, um, got a rough family life. You know, mom died of cancer, dad cheated on her, dad is a drug trafficking, uh, cheater who is in prison. And Joey has basically been living with just her sister and her sister's boyfriend, as this show likes to say, her sister's black boyfriend. They really want us to know that. Um, and yeah, she's in love with her childhood best friend.
Stella: She seems smart and driven and has aspirations to not willing to settle.
James: Yeah, ironically, she is willing to settle for Dawson, but until she's not wants.
Mallory: To get out of Capeside.
Cody: Yeah, I've said it once and I'll say it a million more times. This show should be called Joey's Creek because I'm the most invested in her character. Even though she is making the poor decision of being with Dawson. At the end of the day, everything else about her character is, uh, the most interesting to me. She's stuck in this racist shithole town and everyone hates her and her family and she wants to get out but she doesn't have enough money to go to college. It's like, oh, yes, I want to root for that person because she's genuine and sweet and nice and deserves to get out of this bad life situation that she's been dealt against her will. Let's get Joey's Creek going, baby.
James: That feels like if we were to make a modern Dawson's Creek, that would be the character backstory. Is this down on your luck? And we want to root for her to escape this shitty town like you're saying. Instead of Dawson, who is definitely not hard on his luck. His family seems very well off. Um, he has the world as his oyster, basically. It's from everything we can see.
Cody: I think she also has the best, uh, this show is supposed to be emotional and I think that even though there's a lot to criticize in this show negatively, but I think in the final episode, which we already talked about, her conversation with her dad was so important. And getting to know her character, she just wants to be loved. She just wants to be seen. That's how all teenagers feel and that's why I think she is the most important character in the show, not Dawson who is a rich white kid right. And get whatever he wants.
Mallory: And it felt like for me, it felt like she had the most growth in season one out of here. Looking at all the characters, Joey had the most growth.
James: Yes. I think she's the only one who has growth.
Mallory: Yeah, that's kind of how I was.
James: Uh, Jennifer is being set up for a lot of growth going into season two in the beginning of season two. But Joey, I mean, she actually confronts her feelings for Dawson and I mean, yes, she also is kind of making the decision to run away from her feelings but at least we're seeing, thought we're seeing something going on behind her.
Stella: Head and her, like, saying how she feels to her dad. Uh, I think she was holding a lot of that in for so long and for her to be able to have the what's, um, the courage to face those feelings.
Cody: Yeah, she's someone that, it's very hard for her to be vulnerable. She's always crossing her arms, she's always shrugging everything off and does not like to confront those hard feelings. So to see her actually breaking those walls down was such a huge moment for her and it sucks that we're not getting those kind of moments of catharsis with other characters. Hopefully we'll see that in the future.
James: Hopefully.
Stella: And also, I don't think we talked about this in our last step but we don't really know if Joey does go on her trip and she could be not really running away and staying there and processing more of her feelings with Dawson, her dad, who knows?
Cody: Yeah.
Stella: Uh, maybe building a relationship with her dad.
Mallory: M, if she does go, maybe she goes and processes her feelings while she's away too.
Cody: Since we're on the topic of Joe, I think it's important to talk about Bessie Bodie and the forgotten baby, Alexander. Bodie to that too, is his name Alexander? Uh, the last time we saw Bodie was when Bessie gave birth and Bodie was going to go to a French, uh, restaurant to get a second job and we just have not ever heard.
Stella: He never came back. He's still at the interview.
Mallory: He was using the bathroom at one point where we didn't actually see him. Uh, right.
James: And I think that's just what Joey's been saying to Beth. Oh, he's just in the bathroom with the baby. Been there for a long time. He's been in there for, uh, three months I think, but it must be pretty bad in there. But just say, I promise.
Cody: Oh, you know what's happening? He's trying to circumcise the baby.
James: He's made a soap knife.
Cody: Oh my God.
James: They deleted scene. Yes, uh, I saw it.
Cody: Oh my God. Let's tell the tale.
James: All right, well, before we come back and talk about Jen. We're going to take a commercial break for this episode.
Cody: We'll see you on the other side. There are only a few certainties I have in this life. One is that Dawson's movie will more than likely not get accepted into that Boston Film Festival. And to that all you creak freaks out there are the best fans a podcast can have. We won't be doing this if it weren't for you. Which is why it would mean the world to us if you could rate, review and subscribe to the show. While there are trillions of stars in the Capeside sky, there are only five that mean the world to us. It would help a whole lot. And we would never choose to hate you like Dawson's dad. We would choose to love you forever. And that is a promise. And we're back and let's talk about everyone's favorite New York expat, Jennifer.
James: Jennifer. She was my favorite character at the beginning of the show. I was expecting that to persist and that she would be my favorite character for the entire season. And that stopped pretty quickly. Like, I think probably by around hurricane is when Jen started to fall off and just become a, uh, Dawson patsy. Basically just a vehicle to explore love of Dawson.
Stella: It annoyed me, I think especially after they broke up. Those last few episodes were with Jen were really unfortunate. Really disappointing.
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: Uh, I did love her persistence though, in trying to be friends with Joey. That shined through, I think, throughout the whole season. I just wish that it would have come to permission more. Very persistent.
Cody: Yeah. It's hard for me again to divorce, uh, two things in this world. Jen is a, uh, very interesting feminine character that is so, uh, progressive in her relationship to other characters in the show and to herself. And that she wants to be independent and she doesn't want to be weighed down by her relationships and she wants to be friends with other women instead of competing with them and like all the stuff and it's so great. And her character, like we're all saying, falters by the fact that by the end of this she just falls into the trap of only giving a shit about being back with Dawson. And there's nothing really much to that story. And I'm wondering again that's my confusion, um, is this good writing on her character is like, oh, she's a hypocrite and that's sad and we're going to see her grow out of that. Or is it the other side of that where it's like just lazy writing and it's like, well, whatever, we're just going to forget about who Jen was as a person and she's never going to actually accomplish the goals of what her arc, what that structure is. And I don't really know what that is. But like you said, Jen, when she came in, I was like, fuck yes, dude. What a great character. And it's sad how she ended up by the end of the season.
James: In a way it feels kind of to your point, like it could actually be intentional because I definitely knew people who were very independent, who stood on their own 2ft and didn't expect anybody to give them anything. And then something happens in their life and all of a sudden that independence is gone and now they're actually reliant on the people in their lives. Kind of the way that Jen is now reliant on Dawson's approval or Dawson's attraction in some ways for her seemingly for her selfworth, um, at least in that final episode. So is it intentional? That's a great question and I don't know the answer to it because it doesn't feel like it is. It feels like it's more just a result of needing Dawson to be this on a pedestal, kind of.
Cody: They gave us Billy and they gave us Graham's and those uh oh, you know what's funny? There's that big preacher in the 90s named Billy Graham. I wonder if that's Billy Graham? Billy Graham. Yeah.
Stella: Graham.
Cody: Billy Graham. Um, so we're given Billy to show what the dark side of her relationship with men has been and we're given Graham's to show her relationship with religion, spirituality and her family. And it's so funny to me that the Billy stuff actually falters. Like there's no point to that at the end of the day because it really just becomes her falling into that pattern again. But with Dawson and then with Graham's, uh, that ends up like a shit sandwich. By the end of her acknowledging the existence of God when that's been her big rejection throughout the season, it's made as a tool possibly to be her choosing religion over her atheism or maybe just her trying to comfort her grandma. We got into it in the last, listen to the last episode, so we got to do it. But who is Jen? I still don't know.
Mallory: Yeah, I feel like she was almost the most stagnant for me. It was like mhm. Yeah. By the end. Where are you going? Where are you going, girl?
Stella: Yeah, I think she is kind of lost. Definitely part of it.
Mallory: Yeah, it is.
Stella: Um yeah, I'm excited to kind of see what happens with all of them, but I want to learn more about Jen's aspirations and maybe more about her relationships with her family members. Kind of get more of that.
Cody: Yes.
James: It's interesting that we get to know quite a bit about Graham's through season one. Obviously, for obvious reasons, we don't learn much about Graham's cause he's a vampire. Um, but I think it's interesting that we have not learned anything about her biological parents. Why haven't we ever seen her talking on the phone with them, getting a letter? They're so checked out in a way of like country club trust fund families that it leaves a lot of questions so it would be interesting. To your point, Zela, what's that like? Obviously they shipped her off so it's not like the best relationship. At the same time, they're trying to look out for her and give her a better life. So they do care about her.
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: It's not like they shipped her off to a school. They shipped her off to a family member to look after look after her to that.
Cody: I want to also talk about the comparing and contrasting Joey and Jen is we end with Joey's arc with her given the opportunity to go somewhere else for her to grow up. And it's interesting that's the beginning of Jen's journey.
James: Right.
Cody: Uh, Jen's Jenny is her going to a new place to grow up and uh, we see that she doesn't. She falls back into her old traps. Whether that's the point or not of who she should be, I don't know. But maybe that is foreshadowing. Possibly. Joey, if she is to leave, does she learn anything when she comes back? Is she going to be a different person if she even does?
James: Right. I hadn't actually thought about that. That's very, um, like, astute because that's basically the exact same thing that Joey is now facing.
Cody: Huh.
Mallory: Also, Billy went and followed Jen. He's kind of like the Dawson in that scenario. Right. Like Jen left him in New York.
James: Right?
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: He goes chasing after her.
Cody: I know we're going to later get into like what we think is going to happen in season two, but I just want to say right now, what if the first episode of season two is a very fake France?
James: Yeah. Yeah.
Cody: And dawn shows up.
James: Can you imagine Van Door?
Cody: No.
Mallory: He's going to film a movie in France but he's secretly stalking Joey.
Cody: This is the best fake episode of television I can imagine. Stupid little like we've talked about his, um, we're not like body shaming him, but we're shaming how they dress him. It's like him and like I want to see him dress like a toddler in front of the Eiffel Tower being like Joy Bobby. It'd be so rich. Yeah.
Mallory: So I was going to talk about this later but yeah. So the way that Dawson carries his style, this is one of my least favorite wardrobe parts elements of this season. So like baggy clothes are, uh, a 90s thing, right? So it's a thing. So I understand the choice in his style, but I hate how the clothes wear him. It's not him wearing the clothes, which is totally I think that could be part of his character. He kind of has this childish way of being and acting and I wonder if they directed him to stand that way in these clothes because those can look really cool in the it's about how you wear them the baggy style. So I thought that was interesting.
James: Yeah, I think it is probably a point of direction. Well, I should say. I hope that's the point of direction.
Mallory: And maybe it'll change because he does.
James: A lot of, like, pulling his sleeves down. Whenever you're wearing a shirt that's a little too big for you and you got the cuff in your palm and you're kind of like pulling on them. He does that. He does that kind of like kicking your pant legs because they're just a little bit too floppy. And he's got that body language of like, a little boy, which I can't imagine that's his natural posture feels happy put on.
Stella: You said that you hated that. When the little sleep I think it's so cozy. Uh, button hole cozy for me.
Cody: Uh, for those that don't know what I look like, imagine a toddler being exploded into a bigger size. It is impossible for me to find a long sleeve shirt that fits me because my body is rotund and my arms are like that of a trex. So all of my sleeves hang about a foot lower than my hand. And so I sort of cuff everything that I own. Um, so if I were to not do that, I would look like Dawson Costa, where I go.
James: Um, I hope that in season two, when we come back to it with Jen, we get some clarity, uh, around the religion thing.
Cody: Absolutely.
James: Because otherwise I feel like they really undermined her entire trajectory. And I was traditionally saying that Joey was getting the worst writing in the worst direction of the show, but I would change that to Jen if that's the way that it goes. And we have just completely thrown out everything that we have for this character. Uh, unless they are to your point, cody using it all as a way to show that despite this change, she is still falling back into her old habits, which is seeking comfort from those around her rather than seeking comfort from within. Shall we talk about Pacey? Everybody's favorite.
Cody: Oh, my God. SoundCloud.
James: Do you guys remember how much we hated Pacey?
Cody: Yes. Wow.
James: I'm sure you listeners remember, but, uh, I think we got into a little bit of trouble with some people with how much we really didn't like Pacey.
Cody: I know. Uh, one itunes or Apple podcast, whatever reviewer said, um, that they didn't like that we were talking about Pacey, uh, because he was the victim of Tamara. But I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. No, I hated Pacey because he was a gross horny boy. With or without Tamara, even if she wasn't in the picture. He is this sticky, sickly, pale, horny, sweaty boy. Uh, he's like every 15 year old and 1998 wrapped into one singular.
James: You can just sell the Hormonal bo.
Cody: Yes, absolutely. And talk about clothing choices too. Like, he just looks like someone that's never had to dress himself.
Mallory: He just throws on a bowling shirt or something and it, ah, probably stinks.
Cody: Like, oh, my God, if he sat in front of you in class, like beginning episodes, you just know.
James: But what a glow up.
Cody: Absolutely.
Stella: Yeah. I mean, Joey is probably my favorite character, but I think maybe for all of us, like, the amount that our opinion has changed of Paisy, like, I love him so much more and he's probably, like, right up there with Joey. I'm just, like, so excited to see kind of what happens with his character. And I think he can be really funny and really sweet. Um, I'm excited about Pacey.
Mallory: I think that he had after Joey had the most growth, he had less, like, a little bit of growth. But I think if we're, like, rating the growth, it's Joey and then Pacey.
James: I agree.
Mallory: Invested in his yeah, I mean, we.
James: Don'T see much growth, but I think we see the starts of a lot of growth with Pacey. Um, and I really enjoy, uh, Pacey in the later season or the later part of the season in the beginning. I think if we rewatch this now, I'd still fucking hate Pacey.
Cody: Oh, yeah.
James: Because he's disgusting like we're talking about. But my question for you all is, do we like Pacey in the later season because of Joshua Jackson? Did Joshua Jackson Salvage Pacey like we're talking about. He can be funny. He's got this really charming performance. If we replaced Joshua Jackson with I don't know, Channing Tatum. Whoopsies? I don't know why I said that name. But what happens if we recast Joshua Jackson or if we recast Pacey? Is he still a good character by the end or is he not?
Cody: I don't think it was salvaged by Joshua Jackson's decisions with the character. I think it was the writing. Because, like, we've talked about these episodes hitting the reset button, I think after tomorrow, that was the big, like, before and after tomorrow. It is the reset button for that character because he's gross horny boy up until that. And then, like, sexuality is still important to him, but it's never like, his leading guiding light for everything in his world. And I do think Joshua Jackson is a great actor because as gross as the character is of Pacey, he played that character well at the beginning. He did a great job of being a gross horny boy. And then later on, where they've hit the reset button, he's supposed to be charming and kind of goofy and sad. He kills it. He knocks that apart.
Mallory: His line deliveries are great.
Cody: Yeah, like that moment where he's with the baby and he's reciting the dialogue from English Patient cried. I mean, it was so charming. And he did that just as well as he unfortunately did that part of him being like, you're going to go to the girl's locker room if he was played by someone else. Channing. Uh, Tatum. I don't think Channing Tatum would have done as good of a job as Joshua Jackson.
Mallory: Um, trying to be with someone else during that time. Like another actor during the, like an equivalent.
Stella: Um, um, what about Dean from Gilmore Girls? Jared Package?
James: I like him.
Mallory: He was also in supernatural.
Cody: Supernatural boy.
James: Yeah, I can see that casting. I couldn't see him doing the scsy thing, though. That would be where he would run off. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's interesting. But let's talk about can we talk about Dougie?
Cody: Do we have to, uh, we need to talk about Dougie?
James: I don't think I've had quite a 180 on a character. I felt so bad for Dougie in Hurricane because he was just basically being, um, gaslit into being gay and queer. Shamed by Pacey. Whether or not he is gay, we do not know. All we know is that Pacey is constantly accusing him of being gay and being ashamed of it. And that really was uncomfortable to watch. Um, but then, god damn, he is just such a scumbag. Like, I don't want him. I don't want to feel sorry for him. And I also don't want to see him anymore.
Mallory: Yeah. And he's one example of the reason we know that Pacey's family, quote, hates him. He's the only example we've seen so far. So he's like perpetuating that for Pacey. What we know of Pacey. So he's scummy.
Cody: Dougie is the only evidence of his family. Exactly. Yeah. So he has to represent all the things that Joshua Jackson, uh, all the things that Pacey doesn't like about the witters. And I never necessarily felt bad for Dougie because even in Hurricane that's able to read, pulls out a gun, puts it in Joshua Jackson's face. Um, man, I keep calling Pacey Joshua Jackson as a very exchangeable. And that's how people get typecasts, uh, very sad. Sorry, Joshua Jackson, if you're listening, I'm, uh, sure he is, but Dougie is such an interesting character to me because, yes, he is being queer, uh, shamed. But he's a bad man. Like, he's a very bad person. So he's one of the few people in the show that does have some kind of weird gray area where you can feel bad for them at the same time as being like, well, there's still a stack of shit.
James: Uh, like Miss Jacobs.
Cody: Yeah.
Mallory: Tammy is a little bit similar in that way.
James: Why is everybody in Pace's orbit? These like, broken, halfgood, half bad, very dual personalities?
Cody: Mhm.
Mallory: Good question.
Cody: Why is it that out of the core four characters, uh, are mostly gray and actually, like, interesting, fleshed out people that have good and bad qualities to them? Whereas it seems like the core four are stagnant and they're just like, we're the good guys and we're stable. Yeah, we're not stable.
James: We got to talk about Cliff.
Cody: You got to talk about Cliff.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: Your boy.
Cody: He's my guy. Uh, everyone's going to make fun of me for liking Cliff, but Cliff, he kind of reminds me of, um, Luke in Gilmore Girls. Here's where I go at the beginning of Gilmore Girls. Uh, Luke is very smart and like a leftist and thinks about workers rights. And he's charming and cool and stuff. And by the end of Gilmore Girls, he doesn't know what pregnancy is. Uh, so very strange for that. Cliff starts off being like he knows movies. So he's like well rounded while he plays football. I'm sure his movie for like the football movie that he wants to make isn't very good. But at least he has an idea of how to make a movie. And it's, uh, well thought out versus, uh, dossiers. Like, I've got ideas but doesn't really act on them. Cliff, uh, is like he takes Jen out to the dance and he's like kind and treats her with respect. Whereas in Dawson screams at um, them. It's like when you have that compare and contrast, your like, yeah, Cliff is a pretty cool guy. But then by the end of the show, he's like, yeah, I'm going to violently attack Jen throughout the entire day because I hear that she likes excitement. His character is so different from beginning to end, is mind blowing. I can only assume this is like where he leaves the show. Too.
Mallory: Is Cliff a triplet? Because three first dates.
Cody: That's true too. Yeah.
Mallory: I wonder if Cliff in those episodes were a different Cliff each time.
James: Well, I think he's just had some CTEs. He's just had too many hits to the head in football.
Mallory: That's true.
James: And we're just seeing him slowly regress over the course of the season. Probably right after we first met him. He got his first concussion.
Cody: I know. Like, oh, Cliff, he's so stupid. But there's something so uniquely charming about how nice it is that in that episode where he has the house party, he is like, oh, do you think Jen could come? And Dawson is like, uh, whatever. Like I'm dating her. He's like, oh, you can come too. That'd be so great. Like there's no version of his character where he's like, fuck you, dick. Like she's my girl or anything like that. He's like, oh, that's so great to know. Well, you're welcome to come too. What a sweet, nice man.
James: What a sweet, nice man.
Cody: Love Cliff.
Mallory: I wonder if he'll be in season two.
Cody: I hope he does, but it doesn't really seem like he will.
Stella: Yeah, I know that we're, um, going to have some new, more consistent characters, um, I think starting in season two. So I wonder if those will kind of replace our little throwaway characters, right?
Mallory: Maybe they'll be one similar to Cliff. Cliff's vibe or something. I wonder.
Stella: Abby. I want more Abby.
Mallory: Yeah, I hope you see Abby again.
Cody: He was a highlight of the season for me that episode. Like I wasn't crazy about the detention episode, but she was like the high point of that. Like just a macavalien weirdo. I'll keep the time. Make out for me, baby. Uh, orgies on ecstasy, everything.
Mallory: And then she was also in Double Date, right? Was that the episode she came back? No.
Stella: Road trip.
Mallory: Road trip.
Cody: Road trip. Yeah.
Mallory: Some of the guys left and they had that.
Cody: Yeah.
James: I think she's the kind of character that I think we need, like a fast talking, Smarmy snarky character who isn't afraid to give people shit and isn't afraid to call people out. Because we don't have really anybody like that in this show. Everybody is, like, very I would say two faced in a way, because they don't ever really talk about anything that bothers them until it's done, it's passed, and they're usually, like, articulating it to other people.
Cody: Totally. What, uh, was the girl's name from the beginning of Nellie? I feel like, um, Nellie sucked because she was so one note with her being kind of mean. But with Abby Morgan, she's so charismatic with it. It's so much fun.
James: And Nelly was just a mean girl prototype archetype. I mean, at least Abby is slightly nuanced because it seems like she thinks she is this kind of, uh, hot shit. At least that's the way they're trying to make her look. She's some kind of like, hot shit. But then at the same time, nobody really likes her. You know, she's kind of like on the fringe, seemingly. I like that character. Well, shall we talk about the theme.
Stella: Pause for a second and just say, because we're close to the 30 minutes mark?
Mallory: Or I have a thought. Do we need to talk about themes? Because we kind of covered all that and what we just talked about.
James: I think we should have a look. Okay, well, what do you guys think here?
Cody: I'm m going to pause.
James: OK, cool. Well, why don't we talk about some of the fine details? We've been kind of looking at the show through a pretty zoomed out lens, slowly getting more refined. But this being a 90s show, looking back 25 years, it's also fun to kind of look at 90s culture. At least, uh, look at this show as a view into 90s culture. We had some great fashion wardrobing, which I'm sure we'll talk about more. Mile, you have any thoughts on that?
Mallory: Yeah, I wanted to talk about how I felt like the wardrobe department really delivered with textures this season. Um, we got corduroy, fleece, leather, suede, velvet, and even some gemstones with beauty uh, contest. Um, so that was fun. Uh, I do miss Nellie's iconic, bright, colorful, 90 style because her style was just like, very iconic of the 90s. So I hope we get a character in season two that kind of delivers that same vibe. Style wise.
James: It was kind of just one color.
Mallory: Palette, and we didn't get m much of it. Like, we didn't get anyone else this season that really had that style.
James: I would say everybody. Kind of had the same style which I liked.
Mallory: Uh, I'm excited to see yeah, I'm excited to see how the styles of the core fort change and see if we'll still see that through line of them repeating the same pieces of clothing but with their new styles. Possibly. And I'm sure we'll see some new haircuts.
Cody: While their styles are similar, I think everyone does have a very unique version of that style of I really like that they take particular care to make sure that like, oh, this is so Joey or this is so Dawson with their costumes. Yeah.
Mallory: And I hope they never do that.
Cody: Mhm.
James: You wouldn't ever find Dawson wearing pacey's clothes for example, like wearing a bowling shirt, walking around in those baggyass pants.
Cody: No.
James: Uh, the music. Can we talk about the music? Yeah, we got some 90s Bangers. We also got a lot of shit. I was expecting, thinking of this show that we would get like nothing but earworms and I would be thrown back a lot more than I was and I would say probably every other episode, maybe every three episodes we got hit by something like I'll Be Albie or something like, you know, Superman by Goldfinger. Like we definitely got some of these big songs but not as many as I was expecting. What about you guys?
Stella: Yes, when they did have some really great eagle drops it was so fun and I wish there was a lot more of that. Um, it was like so hit and miss. It was just like yeah, some apps were like, okay.
Mallory: Yeah, I mean, like the Savage Garden song at the dance, that was exciting. That was the first needle drop that was like yeah.
Cody: It seems like they had a budget for the big songs. We got like two Savage Garden songs and I think that might have been tied into them being signed to Warner Brothers for American distribution. So it's like, oh, that's like an easy tie in. Saves them some money. But then the big guns, baby. Like angel by Sarah McLaughlin or something.
James: By Chumba.
Cody: Yes. Um, definitely blink one too. These are the Bangers but for the rest it's kind of like public domain filler music.
James: They hired a dude who could play both guitar and keyboards and they're like, yeah, I don't know, do something, make.
Cody: A pop song that sounds like this band and very fake. But even that the actual uh, score of the show was so bizarre to me because I still don't think the show does not have, uh, there's no audio language to it yet. There's no Dawson theme, there's no Joey theme. It's very generic sounding to me. Um, sometimes at least it's okay because it feels very background noise to me. It doesn't really do anything. But then other times the beauty pageant episode was so in your face and told you how to feel and it was so grotesque and then other times it sounds like the doinky, like, uh, romcom, like that twangy guitar stuff. It's so weird. I hope that they fix that. It has its own language.
James: I hope so too, because it's the kind of character that would really benefit from it. Think like Twin Peaks. Laura Palmer has a theme to impart emotion, not just for the character when she's on screen, but also just in general. Right. So they could do something like that. It also really fits the melodrama of the show. So why not lean into it? If you're going to lean into these stylistic elements that you're really leaning into everywhere else? Heightened dialogue, all that kind of stuff.
Cody: Yeah, I know, uh, the composer, John Williams gets a lot of flak because his music can be kind of interchangeable with the movies that use him as, uh, the composer for those films. But you watch a lot of these new Star Wars TV shows and you're like, wow, this feels like there's something missing to it. And then you watch an old Star Wars movie and you're like, oh, that's why, like, the music is so important. Like the Empire, like having a dawn. DA DA DA DA. Like, everyone has their own theme, and it's so impactful to what those things are that when you get to something like Dawson's Creek and you get like, Joey, and the only accompaniment is just.
James: Like, okay, typical sappy, sad music.
Cody: Yeah, there's no, umph, there there's no.
James: Motif, m, there really isn't. Speaking of no umph, um and no motif, cinematography on this show was pretty basic through most of it, but then they started to kind of explore things, so it's fun to watch them. I know that nobody on this show was like their first project. They all had a career before coming to this. But I do feel like the show is coming into its own by the end of it. They're trying things like tracking shots. They're trying, you know, interesting dolly shots and things like that that they were not doing in the beginning, where they're just like, hey, camera guy, stand there and um, shoot that. And that's all they would do, just these still static shots.
Cody: Yeah, more often than not, the image is very, uh, the composition is flat, everything is overly lit. There's nothing really interesting happening with the characters and they're blocking. So it's just like people standing around, everything's overly lit, and it's just flat, flat, flat, flat. The only really interesting thing about that is, at least with it being shot on film, there's a texture to the image that feels tangible and it's good to look back on it. It feels authentic. But if this was like a Netflix show, which often are just shot digitally, and it's the same kind of thing, just like a flat, overly lit, static image, it's boring to look at and it sucks. So without that, you got nothing. But like you said, as the show went along. They're taking more risks. They're doing interesting things with the camera pulling in and out of Dawson's window. Uh, with the final episode closing on that dolly outshot with the, uh, shadows on the window. It's pretty. Like, I hope we get more of that than you evolve.
James: I think we will. I really have a feeling that we're going to come into season two.
Cody: Big budget.
James: Yeah, the big budget. They've already secured a lot of stuff, so hopefully it's just going to get better from here. Um, but dialogue interesting.
Stella: Yeah, I feel like in the first few apps, there was a lot of interesting, uh, dialogue that we all were like, what is this? Um, and it was pretty, like, jampacked in the first few words. It was just like they all kind of sounded the same and saying just talking in weird, uh, euphemisms. Is that what I want to use? I don't know.
Cody: Sure.
Mallory: Do you feel like you got used to it?
Stella: Well, I don't know.
Mallory: Continue that right.
Stella: I feel like it got less, uh, like there are still bits of it, but it was not as heavy.
James: I wonder, though, because I feel like it's still there, but I think I just kind of stopped caring about it as much. Yeah, I can tell because they've really hit us hard over the head in those first three episodes of being like, listen here now, govern. I'm going to everything now. I've got a bing bonga mat. Like, everything is just very like, okay, we're just using inside vernacular and everybody's got their thing that they say. And then by the end of it, it's like, this is just the way these people fucking talk, I guess. I don't know.
Cody: I think they tuned it. They turned it down a little bit. Uh, in that first episode, everyone is talking like a Newark character in the 40. Uh, s by now. It's like maybe one line of dialogue within a scene is going to have someone speaking with, like a fun little euphemism or a double and tundra. And not as quick as it used to be either. But the show definitely came in hot, being like, we want to have our cake and eat it too. We want to have extremely stylized dialogue while being a realistic teen melodrama. And that's not going to work out if you want one or the other.
James: No, unfortunately not. And speaking of things working out or not, should we talk about our ratings over the course of this season? Absolutely. So people who may be aware of this, you can go over to our website, freaksandcreeks.com and we actually have a page dedicated to our ratings of each and every episode. Um so freaks and creeks.com ratings. You can see all of our individual ratings as well as the average rating for each episode along this season. Um, but let's quickly just talk about using that data. We calculated an average rating for season one, which is can we get a drum roll, please? 3.33, which is, I'd say representative. Right. Pretty mixed leading towards good. How do we feel about that? Does that feel like reflective?
Cody: Yeah, I would say it's better than middle of the row, but it's not great.
James: Yeah. And, um, I think that's like pretty high praise for the first season of the show.
Mallory: Yeah, definitely.
Stella: Yeah. It's interesting. I'm looking at my overall, started out strong, had a low dip, was, uh, pretty steady for a while in high ratings. And then it just went downhill. Except for the Scare, which we all liked. We all overall liked the Scare and attention the most.
James: Mhm yeah, it's interesting looking at this, our highest rated episode, Hurricane as well. It's Hurricane, but that's really because Stella broke the rules and she's a very bad girl. And she went to jail for a little while after that.
Stella: That was canceled.
Cody: Yeah, she got canceled.
James: Then if, um, we remove that, our highest rated episode is the detention episode. Which is interesting because I feel like we really had a lot of thoughts on that episode. We were pretty critical. Cody, I remember you were basically a very angry man. You were yelling at all of us. We had no taste.
Cody: I just think there's a difference between homage and ripping off. And I'll stand by it, and I agree.
Mallory: It was still fun.
James: It was a very fun episode. And I think that that really kind of highlights I don't know if you would agree with all this, everybody, so please disagree with me if you don't. But that highlights this episode. This show for us, it is a very enjoyable show to watch that has got a lot of problems that you kind of have to look past. You know, like the dialogue's weird. It's got some problematic shit. It's not actually all that good, but I can't help but think about it and want to watch more.
Cody: Absolutely. M yup.
James: On the same subject, let's talk about our lowest rated episode here. Um, beauty contest.
Stella: Yeah, beauty contest by a long shot.
James: 1.3 is the average rate we host gave that episode.
Mallory: And that was a fan favorite, apparently.
James: Yeah, we got weird, which is odd.
Cody: Yes, we got a little bit of.
James: Heat from the listeners on us panning that episode. So hey, I want to first just say I'm sorry if we really hate, uh, something about the show that you love. But we, uh, are coming at it from a very fresh perspective, from a very maybe different point of view than, uh, a lot of the listeners have. So just enjoy the differences and opinion that we have. Because I would also say that as low as we rated that episode, it's one of my favorite episodes in the entire season. Do we agree?
Cody: Oh, yeah. It's a nightmare. But it's an enjoyable nightmare.
Stella: I don't ever want to watch that episode, I guess.
Cody: Oh, neither do I. But it warms my heart.
Mallory: I want to forget that song forever.
James: Oh, it'll never get out of our heads, though. Uh, I know Cody will probably know this monos hands of fate. You guys know this culture.
Cody: Absolutely.
James: It's a movie that is one of the first examples of like, so bad, it's good. Everybody wants to watch this movie and make fun of it. And even though it is one of the worst films of all time, it's just so enjoyable to watch. That's how I feel about beauty contest. It's like a torture movie that I love, you know? It's like I want to watch that and throw popcorn at my TV and have a sing along just like we did in the episode.
Cody: So yeah, if it was a Rocky Horror screening, it would be a bunch of people in the crowd with Vaseline on their teeth. Everyone do like singing on my own.
James: We'd all have an interesting speech about why we, uh, deserve to be Ms. Win Jammer. Sorry she didn't get married when she wins the award. That wouldn't be too out of place in this cape side that we think exists.
Cody: Yeah. For me, it's, uh, that in Hurricane or encapsulate my feelings for, uh, man off the hands of the room troll two. Put these in there because it is pretty strange.
James: Yeah. And so good and so bad all at the same time.
Stella: Do you have the overall rating for episode 13?
James: I do, yeah. So when we're recording this, we haven't released it yet, but I have the rating. We have given that one an average rating of 228, which places it in the lower third of, uh, the episodes, but not the well, it's the second level.
Mallory: Yeah.
James: So, you know, make sense to me.
Cody: Well, I think one of the reasons a lot of people will be critical of our review of this show is I think a lot of people view the show with, uh, the outlook of shipping characters that they like and they want them to be together. And so I think for people that really wanted Joey and Dawson to be together by the end of this first season, they probably loved these episodes and leading up to the finale, whereas we're a little more indifferent and talking about other things. So, uh, yeah, it's going to be a little different.
James: Hold on, we'll get there.
Cody: It's going to be okay.
James: If everything is going to be okay.
Mallory: You'Ll get through it.
Cody: It's okay.
James: So I know we have the average rating for the season, but I also want to know your individual ratings. How do we feel? Do we want to give the season a rating? One out of five?
Cody: Uh uh, one out of five.
James: My, uh, between one and five. We don't all need to write it.
Cody: From one to five. I, uh, would say that my general consensus is going to be a two five out of five. It's right in the middle. There are some great things. There are some really terrible things. This is not a good season of television, but it kept me interested and I still watched it. Like I was saying before we even recorded, I watched the new Hellraiser. Was it good? Absolutely not. Did I still watch the whole thing? Were there still things that were okay about it? Sure. And that's what this first season is. And I'm happy to hear and report that. People that have talked to us about the show have said the first season is the worst and it gets way better from here. So if this is the lowest point, I'm all for it.
Mallory: Yeah, I'm going with the 2.5 as well. Same thought. Like, for a first season, middle of the road, I'm not going to give it a high rating because again, we've heard that this is one of the worst seasons. So 2.5. It's funny because I looked at my average, which was a 3.7. And then of course, the group average is 3.3, but definitely going to go lower with 2.5%.
Stella: Yeah, I'm teetering right now. I think I'm going to say 2.75.
James: Kwh. Wow.
Stella: Um, yeah. Overall it was fun. Overall, I was disappointed. Um, I wish there had been more, uh, weirder episodes. Hurricane. The more I think about Hurricane, I just loved that episode so much because it was so bonkers. I wish there had been more of.
Mallory: That more hot messes.
James: Yes.
Stella: Um, but yeah, I'm excited to keep going. I am concerned because I was looking at Reddit last night. I didn't get any spoilers.
Cody: Don't go to reddit anyone.
Mallory: Okay.
Stella: But I saw people. There was like a what do you call them? Uh, like a thread, whatever, um, where people talked about how they rated the seasons interesting. And people had season one, um, kind of like midway. People were saying the worst were like the last seasons. So I'm kind of curious about that.
James: I wonder if it's just a disappointing ending for those people and so they rate it lower. Like you're saying Cody, lower.
Cody: I also wonder if it too because for so many people, this show is going to be different things. Because right now these characters are in high school and they're going to have to age out of high school and they're eventually going to have to go to college or whatever the fuck. How they, uh, keep them in Capeside, we'll find out. But I'm sure like Boy Meets World or any other show that has to deal with that same kind of trajectory. I wonder if people rated lower the later seasons because they're like, I just wish we were in Capeside. And it's not really thinking about the, uh, writing or narrative or anything like that. It's more like, oh, I missed the vibes when they were still in high school.
Mallory: Uh, interesting. Yeah.
Cody: Or it's all dog shit. We'll find out, we will find ten years.
James: All right, so I am going to be rating season one of Dawson's Creek two out of five. I guess I will be the detractor here and give it the lowest rating. Um, look, I want to be clear, I did enjoy this show. I'm glad that I watched it. I think if I asked myself that question, am I happy that I watched Dawson's ah, Creek season one? Yeah, I am. I was very curious about what the show was. Um, I'm glad to know what it is now to have some actual frame of reference and I really did enjoy I'm looking forward to continuing the show. That said, it was bad season. I'm sorry, I really can't help but feel like I don't know why. I watched a lot of what I watched. Um, a lot of the writing felt very convenient, like it was just kind of treading water. Um, but like I said, I think a lot of that was also because they weren't sure if this is going to be renewed for another season or even if maybe they wanted it to be renewed for another season. So I really enjoyed parts of it. I had to find games, though, for myself to play to make it enjoyable, which is partly why I talked about vampires nearly every episode. Um, because for me, that's what it took to really stay invested in the characters and the show is to make a fantasy land. So what do you mean there aren't.
Mallory: Vampires in Cape side?
James: Oh, no, they're definitely vampires in okay.
Cody: Cape.
James: I think it's clear as day. Uh, anybody can see it. If you are denying it, it's probably because you're being paid by the vampire mafia that exists in caseide. So yeah, I mean, two out of five. I know that sounds harsh. I really want to reiterate, I enjoyed this show. I want to keep watching it. If you love this show, please don't cancel me. I'm a good boy, I promise. But I just didn't enjoy this season.
Cody: Yeah. Uh, enjoyment and critical, uh, thinking are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of things that I know are not good that I really like and there are, um, plenty, plenty of things that I think are extremely good, uh, but that I don't like. That's, um, totally okay.
James: And I'm critical of all sorts of things that I love. That's just the way it is. The one thing I'm not critical of though, is King Gizzard. It will never be critical. They can do no wrong. But I think that if I can I know. I'm going to go briefly off topic here, but I wanted to just talk about this. This is something that Cody brought up in the beginning and I wanted to throw this out there because I think it's relevant to what we were just talking about. But watching this show for the podcast does kind of change the way that I view the show just a little bit. Because instead of just watching it once, if I just watched it once and then we came on here and talked about it, I'd be like, fuck yeah, this show's sweet. I think maybe, I don't know, I might still have some big problems for it. But the fact that we watch it several times, three, four plus per record, and we're thinking about it for two weeks does inherently make you be very critical of the show. So I want to remind people of that. Like, you're hearing our very measured thoughts that we've really thought about for this show and we don't want to just come on the air and be like, yeah, good app, okay, bye.
Cody: Uh, I think it's so important and this is for television, for film, but like actually giving what you experience some thought and uh, think about it. And when TV used to be something where it was on once a week and you had to wait until the next episode for that week, if you were invested, you were thinking about what's going to happen next, like, what are going to happen to these characters, et cetera, et cetera. And we live in this binge age of it's like, oh, they drop ten episodes, I'm going to watch it really quickly. And then you forget like, oh, what was that episode? When did that happen? And I don't really care. I'm just thinking of it as a whole and it's TV and not a movie for a reason. You're given these episodes to think of as individual things and giving it time and actual thought is super important and that will change your relationship to whatever you do watch. So like James said, we're watching each episode three times maybe, uh, for each recording. And that's also between two weeks, sometimes three weeks that will change your relationship to anything.
James: Yeah. And if you want to see it for yourself, go start a new show and watch the first episode three or four times before watching the second episode. I guarantee you, you'll be like, what the fuck is this show? Why am I watching this? Anyway, I just had to say that, um, yeah, anyway, let's uh, talk about season two really quick here because we're going to be going into that pretty soon here. So what do we hope this season brings us?
Mallory: I want to see some growth for Jen. Uh, she's stuck right now so that's one of the things I really want to see for her. Um, and of course we'll find out if Joey went to France.
James: Yeah, I um, wonder if it'll actually tell us that or if it's just going to be like, yeah. Anyway, I wonder.
Mallory: More pacey background. Um, I hope dawson is less annoying. Ah, let's get some development for Dawson and then new characters.
Cody: Exterior. Eiffel Tower day. A floppy clothed Dawson walks out screaming, nowhere to be found? Uh, no. All I really want from this show moving forward, uh, I mean, we've talked about how much we want, you know, Jen to like, you know, become an actual person. All these people that become actual people. But for the most part, the thing that I want the most is right now, Joey, I'm the most invested in as a character, but right now she has one note and it's just shrugging and that's it. It's one style to her performance and it kind of sucks and I want more of her. So that's the thing I want the most. Regardless if that means that she has to go to France to like grow out of that and come home, um, if it means that she stays home but like, breaks it off with Dawson to like grow a little bit on her own, uh, who knows? But that's what I want more than anything in the world. Joey's Creek.
Stella: Joey yeah, I'm hoping for more storylines that don't revolve around Dawson and just more of their individual hopes and dreams and um, I'm worried that it's going to be a lot of this kind of potential, like love triangle or square and like will they, won't they? And like just a lot of that and I feel like there will probably be some of that, but I hope that's not everything and we get to see I hope we get to see new characters and kind of those different relationships form and grow.
James: Mhm.
Cody: I want the formula to change.
Mallory: Uh, you mean like the beginning where they're in maybe they're not in Dawson's room anymore or that kind of person.
Cody: Um, there's a really great episode. Ah, I mean, a lot of people will disagree, but for me there's a great episode of Breaking Bad called The Fly where the episode, the entire thing is just Walter White trying to kill a fly in his meth lab. And it has nothing to do with the narrow narrative trajectory, but you learn so much about Walter White as someone who's like, he is so driven, but if something distracts him, he'll chase that distraction before he has to get something done and that's like, what a unique and cool way to show that instead of just like using the regular format of that show. And yeah, like if that means like, we don't start in Dawson's room, do something weird where it's like earlier Gail gets caught in a storm or Mitch is working on, uh, his little model of the restaurant and then he needs to get glue. So he goes to the supermarket to get glue and guess what? They're out of glue. So he has to go to the next town over and then he meets someone that he hasn't seen since college and he's like, wow, I haven't seen you in so long. Like, yeah, I hated you and I actually never told you this, but I slept with your girlfriend in college and he's like, oh my God, that completely changed my life. You get this whole thing, they'd be like, wow, I can't believe we went this far with Mitch. Like, if we get weird shit like that, I will be happy as a clam. Change it up, baby. I want something new.
James: Yeah, that freedom to explore the show that it has created would be very nice to see what I really oh.
Stella: Sorry, I was just going to say one other thing that, um, I really hope we get to explore more of those themes that we kind of touched on earlier of classism racism. Um, I've heard that we get into some mental health stuff, maybe addiction. So I'm just like, yeah, I'm hoping we get into some of these greater themes that do have a lot of impact on teenagers in their growing up and kind of exploring those greater mhm.
Cody: Yeah, do and not say. Instead of say and not do because the show just loves talking about stuff but they never actually go through the motions of what those subjects are. So I would love instead of just Joey saying like, yeah, the town is racist, um, I want to see that racist. Not that I want to see racist, but like, I want to see these scenes actually being played out and them having to deal with it instead of just talking about it. That's all people do in the shows, they just talk about it.
James: Yeah, I was just going to say, uh, the one thing I want to see from season two is just more viewpoints represented. I want to see diversity not just of characters but of viewpoints and perspectives and actual discussion and dissection of that. Not just like everything being framed by Dawson and his perspective and what it means to Dawson and what it means for Dawson. That gets old. I know it's what the show is called. It's Dawson's Creek. So I'm imagining we're just going to get more of it localized around him. But to our points, that's not really representative of the teenage life, of what it means to be a teenager. It's representative of what it means to be, um, Kevin Williamson, I guess maybe or at least his fictional version of himself. But that's not everybody's life. So let's start to see more people, more thought.
Cody: Yeah.
Stella: Season two, here we come.
James: All right, well, anything else to talk about or we good to end this one. Is that season one?
Cody: Rat.
Mallory: Did we do it?
James: I think we did it.
Stella: Season one, baby.
Cody: Five head back to camp.
Stella: Yeah, five more to go.
James: Yes. Only let's, uh, see 26 times five is we have 130 more episodes remaining of Dawson's Creek so it's going to be over so soon.
Cody: Anything can happen.
James: Yeah. All right, well, I guess that's ah about it. So thank you so much for listening to not only this episode but our first season in general.
Cody: I.
James: Mean like, Jesus, we did it, people. We launched a podcast and we're here. So, um, on that note, we are going to be taking just a little bit of a break between season two. We've got some things going on and we want to make sure that we have time to dedicate to the show. So just go ahead and keep an eye on the feed. We will be coming back before you know it and maybe in the time between you might see a couple special bonus episodes. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, bonus. But until then, if you do want more content, go ahead and subscribe to our social media. You can keep in touch with us. There it is at freaksandcreeks on Instagram. Check our website, freaksandcreeks.com, for any updates or any new changes as we're going. And then of course, feel free to write to us at our email address. You can find it at show at freaks and creeks.com. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your ideas for season two, what you loved about this show, uh, what you loved about our episodes and what you loved most of all about me, James. But otherwise, until next time, bye bye.
Cody: Hmm.
James: Thank you.
Cody: You.